Betsy Cerulo: Welcome to Room at the Table, an opportunity for you to join me, Betsy Cerulo and my guests for conversations about creating equitable and inclusive workplaces where leaders rise above mediocrity and our teams thrive. Pull up a chair, there's always Room at the Table. Welcome to another meaningful conversation on Room at the Table. I am Betsy Cerulo, your host, and welcome to my guests today, Tony Hill, managing partner of Edwards & Hill Office Furniture, a leader in interior design and office space planning. Tony is also a seasoned performer, having hosted HGTV show, Dream House, and had a role in Steven Spielberg's film Minority Report, as well as does voice overs for high profile clients. Our other guest, Dr. Shawne Duperon, CEO of ShawneTV and creator of Project Forgive: The Good Gossip Theory, and six time Emmy winner. So today we're talking about how to spot a nice racist and what that means. So pull up a chair, enjoy your favorite beverage, and let's get started. Welcome, so much, my friends. I'm so glad you're here today.

 

Dr. Shawne Duperon: Thrilled to be here.

 

Tony Hill: Good to meet you, Dr. Shawne.

 

It's really great to meet you too, Tony.

 

Yeah, this conversation has come up many times. I have witnessed it, I've been the recipient of it, and I've gotten to a point in life that I interrupt it. Because what I have found, whenever the term nice racist comes up, I've been in business settings and personal settings where you know someone said something that is just inappropriate, and that inappropriateness can be race-related, gender, sexuality, age. I can go down the list, and I have witnessed people say, "Well, he didn't mean that. She's a nice person." As I have grown wiser, in as appropriate or professional of a manner, I will say, "But what they said was racist. We need to call it out. That's not being nice, that's for sure." So that's why I want both of you here to have this conversation. So Dr. Shawne, I'd like to start with you. So let's talk about a nice racist, the person who we think means no harm, yet speaks inappropriately to and about a diverse community. So Dr. Shawne, how would you define a nice racist?

 

It's probably going to be different than what you expect. And for those that are listening rather than not seeing, I am a white woman, almost 60 years old. So this is my take as a white woman, almost 60. Wait. I just turned 60.

 

Happy birthday.

 

Congratulations.

 

Welcome to the club, yay.

 

So I see nice racists as deeply ignorant, and ignorance is not bliss at all. I also see it as a community conversation, because when anyone violates a boundary, and I say microaggressions, being a nice racist, that's violating boundaries, it takes the courage of the community to speak up. Because I really believe nice racists truly do not grasp that they're being a nice racist, like no one told them. Kind of like my seven year old granddaughter who has really horrible table manners. Horrible. She talks with the mouthful of food, and I just constantly, as her grandmother when I'm with her, "You know what? I can't understand you, Brielle. You are worth the wait. I'll wait till you're finished chewing, and I'll listen to what you have to say." Shaming her, getting angry at her, confronting her in a way that makes the turtle dive deeper will never work. To me, nice racists are diamonds in the rough. Those that are open-hearted will receive feedback, and you've got to take some risks with some of your feedback.

 

Absolutely. Tony?

 

It's really interesting because it creates this space where, sometimes, not always, I'm not sure if you can have a win, and you'd like to have a win, right? Because I know I will continue to encounter nice racists and not so nice ones as well. But, point being, I have somebody that I work with in business, a white man, I know him, great guy. I told him he was an accidental racist. I didn't say he was a nice one because I think some people don't even realize when they are being racist. And just the quick story, we did a project together. It was a great project. And he said, "Man, you made a lot of money on that project." And I said, "Well, not as much as you might think." While the project had overruns, we had to pay those employees during those overruns. We made some extra money, but not as much as you might think. He said, "Well, just don't do anything like go out and buy a fancy new car." And I said to him, "Well, what makes you think that that's the first thing I would do if you think I made a little extra money, number one?" I said, then, number two, at that point, I said, "I've been in business for about 20 years. Don't you think I should have earned enough money to buy a fancy new car by now, if I wanted to, you know?" So, I at least explained that to him, but we haven't had many conversations like that since, because I think he kind of retreated a little bit. Yeah, we still got a decent relationship, and we still work together. But again, so it's that question. You hope it'll be well-received. As a member of the human race, it's sometimes difficult to take criticism, constructive or not, so it's a tough, uphill battle. It's like, when do you choose? When do you not choose? When can you be successful? When can you not? Then, just one other thing, even in the healthcare field, I've experienced it myself, but I was specifically told about one that was kind of full circle where a black friend of mine went to the doctor, his primary care. An issue that he had had over time, but was being managed, the doctor said, "Well, let's make sure that we get it checked by a specialist, just to make sure we're good." Fine. So the doctor recommended the specialist. He went to see the specialist, and he said that the specialist said, "Have a seat on the table over there. So what's going on?" And he said, "Well, I'm having some pain here." He said, "Oh, that's muscular," and that was the whole consultation. So he went back to his primary. He said, "Listen, this guy that you sent me to, I sat on a table across the room from him, and he said, that's muscular." He said, "Oh, but he's a great doctor. He's a great guy." How do you combat that? Well, now your primary is stepping in and taking up for the nice racist. It's very, very layered, and it's all over the place. I imagine that both of them being doctors didn't mean any harm, but there's obviously some issues there.

 

Yeah, I can tell you where I grew up. So I grew up in New Jersey. And I'm sure we all have stories of things that we witnessed growing up. And I had a grandfather that would definitely say things that were inappropriate. And when I think back to them, I'm thinking, oh, my goodness, I can't believe that I overcame that. But I knew, as a kid, that some of the things that were being said, they didn't feel right. Now, he wouldn't hurt a fly, but the things that came out of his mouth were... oof. So, my grandfather was a nice guy, but as I have matured in my work, in diversity, equity, and inclusion, he was clearly a racist. And I often find that there's times when I have gone up to visit my hometown and see people that I grew up with, and I hear some things that have come from what they're saying. Certainly not everybody. And I think to myself, oh, but the space was open that I could have a conversation. It wasn't making, you're wrong, you're a jerk, you're inappropriate. I just want to educate you. So let's talk about how I felt. Now, let me share with you how someone who could have been the recipient of that comment might have felt. And I have found that, more often than not, the person tells me I just didn't realize that. I had no idea. So I think educating is important, but it's tough. It doesn't feel good to even be in that situation, but we do our best. We do our best to interrupt it. So let's talk about microaggressions. So Dr. Shawne, Tony and I did some work together a couple of months ago for the Chamber and the foundation that we sit on their boards, and it was a DEI training, and we talked a lot about microaggressions. So Dr. Shawne, I want to go back to you. So what have you experienced when in the middle of the aggression, what actions have you taken to stop it?

 

Yeah, you know what the biggest critical thinking skill I think around this is? When a microaggression happens, whether it's about race, gender, ageism, the first thing to think about is discern how important this is. If it's a total stranger, it might not be worth the effort. And the reason I say this is because of that viral PGA golfer video. Did you guys see that video?

 

I heard about it.

 

Okay. Have you heard about it, Tony?

 

I have not.

 

Young woman, early 20s, PGA expert golfer, but she's practicing her swing and she's slowing it down, trying different things, and you never see a man, but he actually mansplains to her how to golf, okay? And she didn't reprimand him. She didn't correct him. She tried to explain, but he wasn't having it. He kept talking out about how he'd been playing golf for 20 years. How she dealt with it, in my world, that's how I would have dealt with it. Total stranger. Never see him again. Is he worth investing, educating, creating boundaries with? No. Personally, I would never see him again. Sometimes I might feel a little feisty and say, hey, have you ever heard of mansplaining before? Might want to look it up. I've been known to do that with strangers. So the critical key is, who is this person to you? It's worthy and viable if it's a boss, if it's a team member that you work with quite a bit. It might be worth it with the uncle that you see once a month at a family gathering. So that discernment is so important, because not all microaggressions are created equal, and I love the concept of calm confrontation, and sometimes it's just emoting something. Depends on what the microaggression offense is. It might be, oh, did you really just say that? I've been known to say that and let it go and let it simmer, because these are deeply held beliefs of denial in white privilege, particularly. It's not going to be solved, resolved, fixed in one conversation, it's not. And to start laying breadcrumbs, to me, those are breadcrumbs of the allyship, to say, oh, wow. Like, wow, what had you say that? As the conversation evolves and says, what do you mean by that? So to me, it opens a dialog to actually have an authentic conversation. And how you know you're having authentic conversations with people of diverse backgrounds, regardless of the diversity, is you start hearing information, and you're listening to information you've never heard before, because when someone feels safe, emotionally safe with you, they're going to start sharing the real deal. And I have lots of examples of that, so that's how I know I'm internally on the right track when people start opening up to me in ways I hadn't discovered before. Does that answer your question? That was kind of a roundabout.

 

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And Tony, your thoughts?

 

It's really all over the place, because there is so much. My approach to people like that -- and I love the way you explained it, Dr. Shawne, there's a lot of ignorance. That's really where so much of it is rooted. And one of the ways that I found -- because, in that situation, the dynamic is that I'm not qualified, shouldn't be challenging anyway. Oftentimes, people completely shut down, so what I found has been helpful is to simply ask questions and let them answer the question, and then they start realizing. Sometimes people realize and they'll deal with it. Sometimes they realize and they retreat. But I found that that's the better way for me to do it. It's just to pose the question. Most times, I find people won't even answer the question. I can see them thinking, yeah, and they'll jump, change the subject to something else, or sidestep the issue, and then I'll ask them a question about that, and then, at some point it becomes too much, and either they'll kind of walk away, or I realize, well, we're really getting nowhere here. But I think it's basically holding a mirror up to somebody so they can see, like you said, did you just say that? If you ask them the question, and they have to think that I just said, oh, now I see that there's a problem here. It's whether they will or will not acknowledge it and whether they want to actually talk about it. Sometimes they acknowledge it, not even overtly. You can just see that it's registered with them, and then I just leave it to them to hopefully deal with it within themselves later and hopefully come  out of it being a better person.

 

Really authentic people, if I can jump on that, Tony, they're going to say something like, wow, I'm embarrassed. Thank you so much for telling me. Thank you. So authentic people that deeply care about allyship in any way will embrace that calm confrontation.

 

Absolutely. Things that we heard or said growing up, or even over the years, the meanings of some of the things that were commonplace don't mean the same anymore, or they may have meanings that are that are offensive to people. I find that when I come up against situations like that, I have learned to take a deep breath, pause, step back a bit, and you do that all in the span of two seconds, and you come back to the conversation like you're both saying, ask questions. Even though I could just feel my blood boiling, the way I keep myself calm is just ask the questions, and ask the questions in a way that evokes a conversation that could be interesting and inviting, versus you're wrong, because, in any topic, if we come back at someone, even in our own personal lives, you're not going to get that much if you have the finger going and you're wrong, even if you feel that way. So I appreciate both of you saying about asking the questions. I want to share about a microaggression we had this weekend. So we went to see a concert with a performer who's definitely inspired by what's gone on out in the world, and her lyrics reflect that. So my wife and I are sitting there, and an usher comes over, and he's just leaning over, and it felt bit invasive, but I just said, okay, just let this be. Another couple comes. He pulls out the chair to let the man and the woman in. And the man was going to be sitting next to my wife, and he goes, "Sir, what's your name?" He says his name, and, "Madam, what's your name?" and introduces them. I think to myself, and then he looks at my wife, and says, "Looks like he has a lot of money." I just said, "That was really inappropriate. We're married." His response was, "Well, that doesn't mean anything." And  actually, the couple changed places so that the woman was now sitting next to my wife, and I just bit my tongue. The next day, I said, I am writing to the executive director of the organization. And I did yesterday. I didn't make it accusatory. I just wanted to let him know, I want you to know we did not feel seen, and if you don't have it, you may need to have a sensitivity training for your volunteer ushers, because he made an assumption, and it felt invasive. It felt offensive, and it was invasive the way he was standing over us. So, many times over the years, I've let things like that go from an LGBT perspective, and even being a woman. And you know what? I'm not going to let it go anymore. So I don't know if I'll get a response. I don't know if anything will change, but at least I brought it to somebody's attention.

 

Yeah, and that's key. One of the other things too, and I don't like to give people excuses, myself included, but I do like to explore the possibilities, because I think, in some instances, we need to show some grace and be understanding. One of the things that I found that I did once, Betsy, in the DEI training that we both attended, there was something that was mentioned that struck a nerve with me, and I actually laughed, even though it wasn't a funny situation. It was more of a nervous laughter, and I'm thinking in my mind, oh, I can't believe that, because that's happened to me before, so somebody could have taken that the wrong way. But that's where, if you have a genuine conversation and you ask the questions, you could find out. And I also spoke about an instance where I learned I was at an event, and there were three females who were in front of me, and we had a little bit of conversation before, and I just said, "So, where are you ladies from?" And I don't know how they identify, but if I was to judge, then some were more masculine dressing, for lack of a better term, than others. And one of them in particular seemed to be uncomfortable with me saying, "Where are you ladies from?" And so in that moment, though, I caught it and realized, "Oh, yeah." So what I did was I learned from that lesson, at least, I believe I learned from that lesson. That was like a year ago. So I thought, I'm going to have to be careful, because the world's changing all the time. I'm going to have to be careful now how I address people because we do identify differently, and we do want to be respected and seen. And so, albeit that was unintentional, I could learn from that, and then I can help other people learn from that, I think, by sharing as well.

 

Absolutely.

 

Can I add something?

 

Please.

 

Yeah. So we've heard this a billion times. This is what we do. This is what we train, how to have these uncomfortable, high pressure conversations. One of the scenarios that are possible, like for the situation you described, Betsy, is "I" statements are always good, always true. I love how you handled that as well. And there's always options. And something that I found that works really well is I'll say something like, wow, "I'm really uncomfortable with that comment," and just be quiet. It's almost like negotiating a salary. When you can learn how to be quiet and be with the discomfort. Also, I love what you said when you were talking about, take a breath and give yourself a couple of minutes, right? Like when something happens that really is startling. I've been known to, when a startling thing happens, I literally call it out and say, "Wow, I am really startled by this. I need to take a step back and catch my breath, because I don't want to say something I'm going to regret." I've said that many times, and I'm creating what's going on for me, in my world, separate from what they said or didn't say, to actually start some authentic dialogs, because that, to me, is the critical component in the relationships you're building. How do you start the critical dialogs that freaking matter? A lot of this stuff doesn't even matter, you know?

 

It's tough, because I know that as I have matured in my career, as a woman, as a gay woman, I think many of us were groomed to just be quiet about it, not say anything, just let it go. God, I hope this goes away. And as I've gotten older, I'm just like, no, not doing it anymore. It takes work, because, knowing Tony, knowing you, and Dr. Shawne, as I've gotten to know you and your work, you want to come from a place of forgiveness, and I know Dr. Shawne, you know about that with your project Forgive, because sometimes people, they just don't know. And then there's the group that is just overtly wanting to cause harm. How do you walk that line? But love begets love, hate begets hate.

 

And boundary setting begets boundary setting. Getting appropriately upset creates a culture and an environment where people have permission to be authentic, and being expressed, especially being in the LBGTQ+ community, when so many didn't have a voice for so long, I just cheer and say, rock and roll. Everybody's at a different phase. There's no right or wrong, and I'm not even clear what the phases are. It's all different and unique as humans. There's certain things I'll get riled up about. No, not even an option. I will say this, because this is important to me.

 

To that end, I do television as well, and I was interviewing somebody, and we were done with the interview, and this gentleman was with an organization that deals with Alzheimer's and dementia, and my mother-in-law is living with dementia, and so I mentioned it to him afterwards, and he said, “Oh, how are you and your wife dealing with that?” I said, “Actually, it's me and my husband. I'm gay.” He said, “Oh, I'm so sorry.” I said, “Don't apologize. You had no way of knowing. It's fine.” Those are the types of authentic exchanges that you have, and there should be no blame. Nobody's wrong. Nobody's a mind reader, and we're not wearing signs on our forehead, but some people are afraid to have those conversations. And in the past, I would have never offered up that I was gay and that it was my mother-in-law and my husband. I would have just let that go. So kind of like you, Betsy, and I think from what I hear from my friends, straight and gay, I think as we get older, I think that fuse gets a little shorter for BS. You want to live your authentic life. You want to leave a legacy. You want to have a positive impact on people. And if we can leave the world a little better for the folks that are coming behind us, we hope to blaze a trail.

 

Absolutely. So we're in 2024 and one would think we are becoming a more loving and welcoming world. Yet that does not appear to be what is happening. So Tony, I'm going to start with you. How do you navigate the tensions diverse communities are facing?

 

It's tough, and maybe even tougher for me than most, because whether it's politically correct or not, let me just say that I'm the safe black guy in the room. So, by being that, I actually am glad because the walls come down and things happen that might not otherwise happen, which gives us opportunities to then address things and grow. I've been in a room when people have said things that you would expect them to say when there are only white people in the room, and I've been able to address it. So that's a good part of it, for lack of a better term. And then on the flip side, though, you're still dealing with what everybody else is dealing with. And some days, you choose to engage. Other instances, you choose not to engage. So it's really a tough one, and more so because, like you just said, Betsy, it's 2024. When you look around and you see that people don't want gay people to be married, and people don't want women to have power over their own bodies, it's like, what are we doing? You know? I believe it's a small segment of the population, but they are the quote, unquote leaders, and the sheep just kind of go along to get along. And I'm not sure how that gets broken outside of people dying off over time, which is going to take a long time. I'm not sure how that happens with some of the political races that we have and with the amount of votes that certain people are able to garner and still win seats in the House. It's like in 2024, really, fear still works, and there are people who continue to harp on it, and it's a tough one. I wish I had a better answer, but it's all over the place.

 

It is. Dr. Shawne?

 

So typically, I would not come on a podcast like this because I am not an expert in DEI. I'm not. The reason I came on, there are two reasons because, Betsy, I just loved your power, your energy, your voice. I could not say no to you. I had to come on. And I'm also practicing the modeling of uncovering, like spilling my own wine, like, you spill your wine, the Queen might spill hers too. I'm spilling my wine so white people can see how I've been unpacking white privilege, because it is so ingrained. When I think about it for a second, how I grew up, when I was five years old, I used to have to pray to Jesus and thank him I wasn't black. I'm not kidding. Deeply, deeply uneducated, ignorant family system, right? And during Covid, my son said to me, Mom, you're playing into misogyny, you're playing into squashing voices of people of color. You don't get black women. You don't get gay people at the level that you need to in the position that you're in. And I took his advice. First thing he told me to do, that I did, is follow queer black women on LinkedIn because they're brave as all get out to speak the truth it and might not be how you deliver it as an expert in communication, it'll actually start juicing you to raise your own internal thermometer, raise your own thought leadership. And I really come from this place of relieving tension is about keep doing your own internal work. Follow people on LinkedIn that you would never follow. Read a book like God is a Black Woman by Dr. Christena Cleveland. Allow yourself to say things to people who are not the same background as you to say, Wow, tell me more. That's my favorite line. Tell me more. Stop giving your advice. That's why I was like, why I wouldn’t normally come on a podcast like this, stop giving advice to people of different backgrounds. Your advice is not the same advice for someone of a different background. It's just not. So stop.

 

Yeah, it’s interesting that you say that because it cuts both ways, because there is advice I would give to people who are not black, and it may not be received, and I may not quite get it. I think I do, but I may not, and that's why I keep saying it, and I'm not running away from it. But it really is. I think it's why it's so difficult for us to deal with as a people, to deal with this DEI. It is so vast, and I would say that in this country in particular, racism is so brilliantly diabolical, because there was and still is so much attention to detail put into how to construct this thing where people feel like either they belong or they do not, either they're in or they're not, and if you're not with us, you're against us. And so, in my belief, and here I go giving advice.

 

Please do. It’s a forum for advice, right, Betsy?

 

It’s okay, you’re allowed. That’s right.

 

My belief is that white people as a whole, especially in this country, are being held captive and don’t realize it by holding black people down and doing things that racists intentionally and unintentionally do. I believe white people are kicking themselves. You’re trapped. I know it’s difficult to rip that band-aid off because it’s difficult to rip it off of much smaller wounds. But until, somewhere, some way, somehow we get the courage to rip it off, heal it, and deal with it, it’s always going to be there. You can't straddle the line between privilege and racism. You just can’t. Either you're going to go along with it because you want to have this privilege, or you’re going to deal with it as a human being and not as a white human being, if that makes sense. I really believe that it’s a trap created by white people. But I believe that white people are in a trap. Either you enlighten yourself and fight your way out of it, or you get caught in it and you continue to be part of the problem and go on with the status quo.

 

I wish white people could see how they are being manipulated. I just wish they could just step back from the rhetoric that they’re following, and just really see, “Is that what I really feel?” Or, maybe I need to ask questions, but I know sometimes people are afraid to ask too so it’s better if you don’t ask. But it upsets me terribly when I listen to opinions some people have, and I think, where did you read that? Where are you getting your information? And we all know the propaganda out there. Propaganda has been in the world for centuries, and it has moved people to do things that were unconscionable. We have a responsibility to interrupt when we can. But, Dr. Shawne, when you were saying about some people who you’re not going to interact with, and I think to myself, some of the people that I see out there at various gatherings, and they’re so set or stuck in that opinion, I just don't know if I can change it. It breaks my heart when I say I’m not even going to try. Because there are times when I have said I’m not even going to try.

 

And doesn’t that fall into, for all of us, black and white thinking? Especially with the immediacy of media, everything is so immediate, it’s getting even faster with AI. We want instant gratification. Our expectation of our phone, now, if it doesn’t work, how ticked off we are. Seth Rogan did a blog today, saying, believe in the wonder and magic of technology. This is magic. In our black and white thinking, which is part of our amygdala brain, where we go anthropologically, we like to make things very, very simple. Everything that is going on right now is deeply complex. It’s complex with politics, it’s complex with how interconnected we are, it’s complex in the Middle East, it’s complex with race, it’s complex with gender, with our backgrounds. Everything is complex. What it requires is for all of us to dive deeper into allowing many truths to be true at once and many falses to be false at once. I can sometimes feel myself feeling hopeless about how things are. And I say, wait a minute, Dr. Shawne, you’re falling into the same mindset of black and white, it’s never going to get better, that person will never change. I’m not God. I’m not a deity. I don’t know how things are going to go. I’m really okay with saying to a total stranger, on the flip side, when they say something inappropriate, “I felt really sad when you said that.” And that’s it. “I feel really sad that you said that.” And sometimes, they go, and let them. We have to uncover ourselves, ourselves. If we’re willing to, if we’re willing to be mindful or grow and evolve. It felt very good to be able to say that.

 

You’re right. No matter the situation, the individual has to be willing. There are a lot of things that are cliche, a lot we hear in church, or from our friends and family, and there is a big disconnect, I think, between what we say and think we believe and what we actually believe. Like, you, Betsy, it really is disheartening the things people will go along with because some of them, they believe, some of them, they know it’s not the case but they want the outcome of what that belief will foster. You hear people talk about healthcare, how healthcare is being used as a political pawn. They say, “I hate that. I hate that. It’s wrong.” And then you call it by its official name, and they go, “Yeah, I love it. I got that. I’m glad I got that.” It’s the same thing. And then you get into people’s egos. Now that I’ve gone so deep down this rabbit hole that makes zero sense, now that you’ve shocked me and made me believe that I’m this far down this rabbit hole, can I admit that I’ve been this silly? Or do I now have to stick to my guns? Dr. Shawne, it’s very complicated. It’s difficult to come back from when you have so many people so far down the rabbit hole. At the end of the day, the way they think, it still benefits them. So even though you see this thing happening with your very eyes, and there’s zero question that what you see is happening, you stand right there and say it’s something different because saying it’s something different, you believe anyway, that it serves you. My belief is, if we could get past this division, whether it’s race or sexual orientation or whatever, if we could get past it, talk about an amazing world. But we spend so much energy dealing with and fighting against all these things that are not productive.

 

Well said. I noticed, too, and it’s not necessarily in the LGBTQ community, with the pronouns. People who are not LGBT also define themselves using pronouns. And I know when it’s come up multiple times about someone wanting to use pronouns they/them. I have been in conversations where people just don’t understand it. Or they’ll come and ask me because of my role in the LGBTQ community, and I say, “You don’t have to understand it. It’s okay.” If that’s an identifier for someone that makes them feel whole, feel seen, feel proud, then embrace that. That’s their journey. You don’t have to understand why. Sometimes, I’ve brought it back to a business perspective. If someone identifies as “they” and the name on the resume or the name on the proposal did not identify the prospective employee or business, if you don’t know their race, male or female, and they identify as “they,” that kind of puts it more on equal ground. We all know, in the various groups we belong to, we have been discriminated against. I’ve certainly been discriminated against as a woman, and as a gay woman. But sometimes I would wonder, the concept of using they/them, boy, that’s pretty brilliant if that’s how we could submit our proposals, where nobody knew who the owner was or who that individual was, and that you’re chosen because of what you presented. Now, wouldn’t that be incredible. Now, that’s pretty powerful to be they/them. But again, people want to make it something like, “Well, that’s weird!” And I’m like, “It doesn’t matter what you think.” Really.

 

That’s really key because it’s not about you. It’s about them, and how they want to be perceived, how they want to show up, how they want to be referred to, how they want to be respected. And so, on a religious front, I had this conversation with anybody who wants to have it, that it feels appropriate with. My religious beliefs, which I don’t believe in religion as much as I believe in spirituality and there being a higher power, whatever that is. He, she, black, white, I don’t know, I’ve never seen it. I believe it exists but I’ve never seen it. But the one thing that is a constant for me is, what if you, Betsy, or you, Dr. Shawne, feel differently? Who said I’m right? So, maybe we’re all right, maybe we’re all wrong. Maybe you’re right and I’m wrong. We don’t know. So to stick to this unforeseen thing because I believe it, I’m now saying that you’ve got to deny your beliefs because I believe this. Nobody wants to live that way. We all ought to be able to say, this is for me. That’s for you, Tony? Great. I respect you and that. I don’t believe it. But we should all be able to. That’s why we’ve got a bunch of men saying, hey women, this is what you’ve got to do with your bodies. Craziest thing in the world.

 

It is.

 

And if you went to them and said, hey guys, when you hit this age, you’ve got to get a vasectomy – mass hysteria. They’d turn the country upside down.

 

Right, right.

 

They really would.

 

But, when you explain it the way you have, the simplicity of it, it takes the stress out of it. Just let people live their lives. If you’re not being physically harmed, let the person live their lives, including all of us. It just seems like we could better spend our wisdom and our resources to do so much better.

 

There is a saying. I think I said this at the gala, Betsy. I firmly believe in it. I can get caught up in it myself. We're human beings. But generally, I don't do it. But it’s, don't spend so much time sweeping around other people's doorstep when you haven't cleaned up around your own.

 

Yeah.

 

And that is a big problem in this country. I got all this baggage in my house, but I'm going to tell you how to clean yours up. That's my focus. I'm not going to fix mine. I'm going to tell you how to clean yours up, what you ought to be doing and what you ought not be doing.

 

And isn't that the cornerstone of codependency? I mean, truthfully, I don't remember a time of my life, globally, where there's been so much agony, pain, mental health, strife, suicide, disparity, and health, especially women of color. I wanted to say that out loud. And it's so much easier biologically, anthropologically, as humans, it's how we're wired, to focus on other people's stuff rather than be with our own pain, our own shock, our own grief. We have such a hard time staying with ourselves. And that's why having these little micro-beauty conversations when something happens actually starts opening up those possibilities because we, as a species, do not want to look at ourselves collectively. It's too hard, especially with the pain that's going on now. And it's painful right now.

 

We'd much rather look at the crash because the crash, the sensationalism of it takes all the attention off me. And I'm feeling much better because I’m not dealing with all this stuff that's going on with me, I'm focused on the crash.

 

That's deeply embedded in Good Gossip Theory, you’re spot on. So with bothering, which is a normal – it's not normal, it's a common biological response to make sense of things. Our brains yearn to make sense. And that whole thing with a car crash, we cannot not look. Anthropologically, cannot not look. Try doing it at a car accident, try not looking. It's almost impossible. Great example, Tony, I love it.

 

Well, as we're coming to the end of this conversation, and we could go on for hours, I want to ask you both, as we're closing, what can we and our listeners do to interrupt nice racist behaviors? So, Dr. Shawne?

 

To me, it's like being able to say in the moment, because sometimes you feel you don't know what to say. Say what you don't know what to say. “Wow, I'm having a lot of feelings. I don't know what to say right now. I want to come back to this, and I don't know what to say right now.” Allow yourself to be that real. It's actually a little safer when it’s an “I” statement, because some of us are confronted to actually speak up. I play the game of taking one risk a day. And our definition of risk is different. We all have different definitions and different tolerances and wired differently. My goal is always to take one risk a day. When something happens that might be worth speaking of, I'll say, this might be my risk for the day. And just do it. You're going to screw up. You're going to. That's how you learn how to do it.

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Wonderful. Thank you. Tony?

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I think, when appropriate, asking those questions. I love the way that Dr. Shawne said it, where you're like, wow, you really believe that? I find it's much more effective than it coming from the outside as opposed to you planting the seed and then it coming from the inside. So I think when, and different situations call for different approaches, but when appropriate, I think holding up that mirror to that individual and helping them to see what is really there, not the story that they're telling themselves. And if you can interrupt them by saying, that's not the case. I did this with one of my employees. There were some things going on in the news and it just kind of happened. It was spontaneous. I was walking out into our showroom and the employee just said something. It wasn't racist. It wasn't nice racist. It was just not factual. But the media puts this stuff out there. And so the individual just said, “I don't know why these people are doing,” blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I said, “Well, let me explain to you why.” And the individual said, “I never thought about that.” Makes sense. I really believe it was really taken in and done. I often joke with people that we really do live in the matrix. I simply say to them, if you're driving down the street and the light turns red, you don't have to stop your car. We do, because the light means stop. And we do want some sense of control and civilization and all that good stuff. But you don't really have to stop. And so if we realize that, then we realize that we can make choices and decisions outside of what everybody else may be doing, outside of what somebody tells you you have to do, outside of what you might have seen on the news, depending upon which news outlet you watch. And that is something Dr. Shawne mentioned as well that I think is key. You are going to get a single story with different vantage points, and in some instances, a false story about the story. And then all sorts of variations of the truth, depending on where you go to watch it. And so it's good to just take a look and see what's out there and understand that there are entire networks that are built on, one day, somebody said, ah, everybody's reporting the news that way. What about all these people over here that I know don't like what they're hearing? Ah, I'll feed them what they want to hear. And then I'll sell advertising and I'll make money. So, it's being open to understanding that there are different ways, different methods, different outlets, and that we have to then manage that. And hopefully, it’s that idea of you're trying to bring one along, right? If we can just bring one, maybe they can bring one. It's an uphill battle, though. I'm a realist, at the end of the day. It is an uphill battle. It's very much ingrained in this country. And there are those that keep fostering it and putting the fear out there. Fear, unfortunately, the way it's used, fear is a great motivator.

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Yeah. My hope is that our listeners, when any of us are up against that interaction of the quote unquote, nice racists, that we learn to not say, “But he or she is a nice person.” Just don't even say it. Don't even say it. Just be with it for what you heard and see if you are comfortable in interacting to understand it or to address it. But really start to refrain from, “Oh, but they're a nice person.”

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Yeah.

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Certainly didn't feel good what they said.

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Somebody once said to me that if you had somebody who was a serial killer, but when the serial killer went home, he was the family man and treated his wife like gold and his kids, is he a nice person? Can you be both?

 

I want to say one last thing if I can.

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Of course.

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Actually, to validate you, Betsy. I'm here, and I said at the beginning, I'm a white woman, 60 years old, so that's my perspective and I'm in a perspective of calm confrontation with my white privilege. I deeply validate, honor, revere, a more confrontational approach, Betsy, like what you did with that. It moves me to tears. Have your voice. Legislation is crazy right now. Rights are being taken away. I am not a gay woman. If I were a gay woman, I'd probably be very different in how I responded because I'm in a different phase – that's what I meant about phases. I just want to deeply validate that you don't have to do it perfectly. You can do it angry and you can cause a fuss if you want, and that's all okay. And it actually might be what's needed, quite frankly. That felt important for me to say as well.

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Yeah, thank you for sharing.

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Thank you both for your contribution here because it takes a very special person to not have to and still be okay. But you choose to because you know it's the right thing to do. So thank you both as well.

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I want to thank you both for this vulnerable and honest conversation. And I know, given what I know about the both of you, you are going to shift this. In our way, we are going to shift it. We're not going to give up. We might get irritated. It may be too much work at different times, but we're not going to give up.

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No.

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No. I ask all of the listeners out there, do the same. Just ask questions and face it. Do what you can to change it. So thank you both so much for being here for this conversation. And I wish you both amazing love and continued courage on your quest to make the world a better place. So thank you for being here.

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Thank you.

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